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MoreBloodWine

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Hidden In Him

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@HIM: The MP is back, but it will need to remain in maintenance mode until I can re skin it / fix some of the underlying addons, But it is loading again... all data should still be intact.

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Hidden In Him

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Hidden In Him

April 08, 2020, 10:37:46 AM
This one's pretty good, LoL. Should be fun to put on video some day.  :)
http://www.spiritualwarbiblestudies.com/index.php?topic=181.msg207#msg207
 

Hidden In Him

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Hidden In Him

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My wife dislikes the idea that I'm rewriting studies rather than writing new ones, but the Lord is now opening up Colossians to me like never before, and some work needs to be redone. Very excited about the new insight!  :)
 

Hidden In Him

February 29, 2020, 02:19:44 PM
...get back to making sure studies were ready to put on camera when the time comes.  :)

So how's life with you?  
 

Hidden In Him

February 29, 2020, 02:18:44 PM
I noticed you were still lurking around, LoL. Glad to see I'm not the only one happy about it.  :) Hard at work converting the garage into a recording studio & music room. Gonna be nice! The soundproofing is going to be work and money, but a lot of it is already purchased. In the meantime, I had to
 

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Hidden In Him

February 28, 2020, 05:43:50 PM
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Hidden
 

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November 02, 2019, 02:37:56 AM
I rarely ever used Tapatalk to log in to the site. Not sure if anyone ever actually did as the issue of it not working was never reported.

But for our mobile uses, certain things like this chat box will not be available through the app as this chat box is an addon itself. But all boards within the forum are available and currently confirmed working.

Ty & my apologies !
 

Hidden In Him

August 05, 2019, 03:21:06 PM
An excellent passage I am now writing a study on in the Book of Colossians.

"And I am now rejoicing in [my] sufferings over you, and filling up in my flesh what is lacking of the afflictions of Christ for His body's sake, which is the church, of which I became a servant
 

Hidden In Him

August 05, 2019, 03:20:49 PM
... of which I became a servant according to the administration of God having been given unto me, for you to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations but which has now been made manifest to His saints, to whom God wished to make known what
 

Hidden In Him

August 05, 2019, 03:20:34 PM
... the abundance of the glory of this mystery is among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory, whom we preach, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man perfected in Him.
 

Hidden In Him

August 05, 2019, 03:19:58 PM
An excellent passage I am now writing a study on in the Book of Colossians.

"And I am now rejoicing in [my] sufferings over you, and filling up in my flesh what is lacking of the afflictions of Christ for His body's sake, which is the church, of which I became a servant
 

Hidden In Him

August 05, 2019, 03:19:21 PM
... of which I became a servant according to the administration of God having been given unto me, for you to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations but which has now been made manifest to His saints, to whom God wished to make known what
 

Hidden In Him

August 05, 2019, 03:18:57 PM
... the abundance of the glory of this mystery is among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory, whom we preach, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man perfected in Him.
 

Hidden In Him

August 05, 2019, 02:57:00 PM
An excellent passage I am now writing a study on in the Book of Colossians!  :)

"And I am now rejoicing in [my] sufferings over you, and filling up in my flesh what is lacking of the afflictions of Christ for His body's sake, which is the church, of which I became a servant
 

Hidden In Him

August 05, 2019, 02:56:30 PM
... of which I became a servant according to the administration of God having been given unto me, for you to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations but which has now been made manifest to His saints, to whom God wished to make known what

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Author Topic: 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, 2nd Study  (Read 76 times)

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Hidden In Him

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1 Corinthians 5:1-5, 2nd Study
« on: December 06, 2022, 01:57:05 PM »
Seeing In The Spirit, And The Consequences Of Cessationist Beliefs

     What are the consequences of believing the supernatural gifts no longer function in the church? This is a second study on this particular passage of scripture. In the first, I covered the subject of excommunication, and how it needed to be a work of the Spirit rather than just the decision of mere men, i.e. mere flesh and blood. But I left off discussing something else until now: The apostle Paul's mention here of his ability to see congregations in the Spirit during prayer, beholding their services and worship, and even rejoicing along with them during it, even though not actually present there himself in the flesh. This is what he was talking about when he told the Corinthians the following about being present with them "in the Spirit" during their services:

       Sexual immorality is commonly being reported among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles, such as for one to have sex with [his] father's wife. And here you are having become inflated with pride, and rather did not mourn because the one having done this deed might [soon] be removed from your midst!  For, indeed, I being absent in the body but present in the Spirit have already judged regarding the one having done this thing as being present: In the name of the Lord Jesus, when you have been gathered together in the power of the Lord Jesus, together with my spirit, you are to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit might be saved on the Day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 5:1-5)

     How could Paul be "absent in the body, but present in the Spirit"? As we shall see, there is strong evidence from another passage in Colossians which suggests that, because he was an intercessor, Paul was supernaturally given glimpses of what was taking place in various congregations during his times of prayer, so that he could know their true spiritual condition and exactly what to pray for concerning them. This is why he could say he was literally there in a sense, despite not actually being there in the flesh.
     As we shall also see, there are some who operate in this gift today, though not all may believe such accounts. Yet this is in my opinion precisely the danger in subscribing to a theological bias when interpreting the word of God. Those who don't believe the gifts are still for today are called Cessationists, and they interpret this passage in an entirely different manner. To them, Paul's reference to "being in the Spirit" was just a figure of speech used to justify his right to make the determination on what they should do about their situation, despite not actually being there himself to know the exact circumstances.
     John Calvin for instance, a Cessationist from the 17th century, said the following in his commentary on 1st Corinthians:

     When he says that he had, while absent in body, already determined this, he severely reproves in this way the remissness of the Corinthians... Lest any one should allege that he acted rashly in forming a judgment when at so great a distance, he declares himself to be present in spirit, meaning by this, that the line of duty was as plain to him as if he were present, and saw the thing with his eyes. (Calvin's Commentaries, 1st Corinthians 5, 3.)

     This argument unfortunately explains away the power of God, and defies logic while doing so. If it was important for Paul to be there in order to make such a determination, and his figure of speech was attempting to cover for the fact that he actually wasn't, then by his own admission he was not qualified to make the decision, and was cheating the very principle he himself was endorsing that would have qualified him to. If he was talking about literally being present in the Spirit, however, the passage conforms with other statements Paul made elsewhere, such as in Colossians 2, where it is clear he was talking about literally seeing events taking place in a congregation, despite not being there, by supernatural means:

     For I want you to know what agonizing I endure over you... [praying that you] may attain unto all the riches of assurance that comes through understanding, and attain unto a recognition of the mystery of God, which is Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I say this so that no one may delude you with persuasive teaching. For indeed if I am absent in the flesh yet I am with you in the Spirit, rejoicing and beholding your order, and the firmness of your faith in Christ. (Colossians 2:1-5)

     Notice how Paul specifically mentioned rejoicing with them in the midst of their worship, and "beholding their order," a word Paul used elsewhere to describe how believers were only to speak in tongues if an interpreter was present, and prophecy two or three and let the others interpret, so that all things might be done "in order," and the operation of the gifts be conducted in orderly manner.
     Here again, however, Cessationists try to explain this passage away by saying Paul was merely talking about conceptually "seeing" the Colossians with his "mind's eye" rather than literally. Quoting again from John Calvin:

     Lest any one should object that the admonition was unseasonable as coming from a place so remote, he says, that his affection towards them made him be present with them in spirit, and judge of what is expedient for them, as though he were present. Rejoicing, says he, "Because I see... inasmuch as distance of place does not prevent me from beholding you with the eyes of the mind." (Calvin's Commentaries, Colossians 2, 5.)

     How would Paul have known the Colossians were conducting their services in an orderly fashion if he was simply "beholding them with the mind's eye"? He would have been living in make believe land, and flattering them over something he had no genuine knowledge of, despite professing to.
     Another problem Cessationists face in interpreting such passages in a more humanistic way is explaining why, if the church operated in all the other gifts Jesus Himself did, why did they not operate in this particular one as well? They operated in raising the dead, healing the sick, prophesying, casting out demons, etc. yet when it came to seeing in the Spirit, for some unexplained reason this was off limits to the church. Scripture teaches very plainly that Jesus operated in it, as the apostle John made clear in his Gospel:

     The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, “Follow me.” Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida. Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” “Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?” Nathanael asked. “Come and see,” said Philip. When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.” “How do you know me?” Nathanael asked. Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.” Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.” Jesus said, “You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that.” He then added, “Very truly I tell you, you will see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.” (John 1:43-50)

     In Paul's case, seeing in the Spirit gave him the ability to protect congregations from harm and deception. Satan was constantly sending persecution against him to hinder him from traveling to the churches to protect them in person, but by seeing what was taking place while in the Spirit, he not only knew what to be praying for but also how to counsel them through the letters he was sending.
     But the question becomes, is this gift truly still operational in the church today, and if so for what purpose? As we shall see, while rare, there are indeed instances of seeing in the Spirit taking place today, and not coincidentally they are for the same purposes as described in scripture. While caught up in prayer, saints of God are seeing the circumstances of those who are in spiritual distress just as Paul did, and in others, saints are being enabled supernaturally to see advance people who will be open to evangelism, just as Jesus saw Nathaniel under a tree before they actually met in person.


Instances Of Seeing In The Spirit In Our Time

     I'm going to share a few accounts from personal friends. By the way, when I refer to seeing in the Spirit, I am not talking about seeing into the spirit realm. That is a different matter, where one is given the ability to see into the invisible realm. What we are talking about here is seeing the earthly realm while caught up in the Spirit during prayer. In the secular world they refer to this as remote viewing, but like with all spiritual things, the empowerment to experience such things can come either from God or the enemy, and one must always be wise to discern between the difference.
     The following was related to me by a Christian friend who earlier in his life used to meet up with evangelistic teams to witness to the lost. The experience of seeing things in the Spirit in advance allowed them to witness to an unsaved man about the supernatural power of the Lord Jesus Christ to save him. He came away from such experiences believing that the supernatural power of God is indispensable to truly effective evangelism:   

     I think inner city work has consolidated my belief that we need the gifts operating because without them in that environment you wont last 5 minutes... We had cases of short term prophesy - Example: we always used intercessory support, and someone saw a 'vision' of a guy sitting on a park bench reading a newspaper. Sure enough when folks went out to share His word, the guy was there and was all ears for the gospel. On another occasion a group was worshiping casually in the city square. They were told by the Spirit to wait for someone (they did not know who), and 30 minutes later a guy walked up to them with a big chain over His shoulder - he had just been expelled from his biker gang, and was again open to the gospel. So we learned to learn by doing, and ended up learning much about moving in the Spirit. We had a call to the street and as we contested the edge of the kingdom, gifts would come into play that the church knows little about because they are fighting a different battle. (Carl Emerson, Help With 1st Corinthians 14:32, Christian Forums)

     Another account which correlates with scripture was related to me by a sister who has long been a part of an intercessory prayer ministry, and as already stated, that appears to be a constant when it comes to this gift; it is experienced by those who give themselves to prayer.

     Nothing is hidden from his sight. Hebrews 4:13. The Lord would wake me up sometimes to pray for people. One time he woke me in the middle of the night and I saw a vision when I awoke. He took me to an area where I was hovering above a house made of stone. This place was foreign to me and he gave me a sense of it’s name “Inverness.” The roof was transparent because I could see what was happening inside this home.
     There was a gathering of people and I could see what they were wearing but could not make out their faces very clearly. They were in deep agonizing prayer over something. Some were walking around praying and all were fervently asking God for a breakthrough. As I watched them, I felt deeply moved and asked the Lord to divinely intervene on their situation according to his will and grant them the petition of their heart. Suddenly I found myself back in bed again. I was intrigued by the name because it was not familiar to me so I looked it up on a map and found it to be a city in Scotland. I noted this vision down and basically forgot about it.
     A few years later, a new Pastor took over one of the Pentecostal Churches in my area. I was not a member of that particular Church but some friends of mine were, so I got to meet the new Pastor. There seemed to be an instant rapport between us but I was unsure why. After getting to know him and his family a little better, I found that he had once held a very high position while working in Scotland. One time, certain unsavory factions tried to destroy his credibility due to his position and investigation of them. In retaliation, they began to discredit him by setting him up. At this time he and his family lived in the city of Inverness and his Christian friends would gather in a little house [made of stone] to pray about the situation. He was exonerated from all accusations held against him and although proven innocent, he felt that the damage had already been done. He eventually left and came to my country and is still Pastoring in that Church today. (Angelina at Christianity Board, private correspondence)


     Yet despite people like these sharing their testimonies online, I still see Cessationists refusing to believe it, and instead insisting that the gifts passed away with the apostles. This staunch hard-headedness leads to yet another negative consequence of their beliefs: Chances are they will never experience what they teach no longer exists.


Additional Consequences Of Cessationist Beliefs

     As already stated, the experience of seeing in the Spirit comes especially to those given to intercessory prayer. Can it be experienced by those who teach it has passed away with the apostles? Purely by God's grace, it is still possible, but Cessationist teaching discourages people from believing such things are from God, and in consequence even if they should experience it they will be afraid to tell anyone, or even honor the experience as coming from God. Rather they will disregard what God was trying to show them through the experience. In this way they essentially eliminate themselves from the possibility of God using them in it, even should they be given to intercessory prayer.
     It should also be noted that Paul appears to have operated in seeing in the Spirit often, making it a genuine spiritual gift to some, and Paul taught that the greater gifts must be prayed for. They will not simply fall on someone, and if Cessationists will not pray for them then they will never receive them.
     Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14 made that perfectly clear that such gifts must be prayed for:

     Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak unto men but God, for no one understands him; however, in the Spirit he speaks mysteries. But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification... so since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, be zealous that you may abound unto the edification of the church. Wherefore let the one speaking in a tongue pray that he may interpret, for if I pray in a tongue my spirit prays but the understanding is unfruitful. (1 Corinthians 14:1-5, 12-13)

   Not only can believers pray for gifts they don't yet have to be of greater benefit to the church, but this passage teaches that they should. If not, Paul would not have been wishing for them rather to prophesy than simply speak in tongues, urging them to pray for greater gifts:

     To one the word of wisdom is being given by the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to a different one faith in the One Spirit, yet to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit... Be zealous for the greater gifts, and I will show you a way according to excellence... Pursue love, and be zealous for spiritual gifts, but rather that you may prophecy.... (1 Corinthians 12:7-9, 31, 14:1)

     Unfortunately the Cessationist interprets passages like 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 incorrectly, partly because of their indoctrination and sometimes also because of a certain faithlessness in the things of God. As a result, they indoctrinate others in false interpretation as well. And by adopting a mindset that such things are not of God, possibly the worst consequence is that those who receive their teaching will reject such experiences out of hand even should they have them. And when presented with the truth, Cessationists are famous for condemning those who operate in supernatural gifts as heretical and "filled with pride." I have seen them use this attack frequently, as if even mentioning what God is doing in one's life can be motived by nothing other than pride or one would not bring it up to begin with.
     To quote one of what could be many of citations here:

     Paul writes, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity (or love), I am become as sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal." In Corinth the tongues-speaking amounted to so much noise because carnality had invaded their exercise of the gift. Even today there is a kind of spiritual prestige associated with tongues-speaking. For a Christian to show off any gift that God has given, manifests pride that is lacking in love, and where love is lacking, the exercise of any gift is worthless.

     Suffice it to say here that if one cannot speak of operating in a supernatural gift without being guilty of pride and a lack of love, then the Lord Jesus Christ Himself must fit this description as well, for when asked if He were the one to come, His response to the disciples of John the Baptist was to tell of them the works God was doing through Him. Whether the Cessationist is willing to believe in such things or not, those who know the truth and teach it must not remain silent on the issue no matter what the accusation. Otherwise, accurate interpretation of the word of God will be lost, and end up buried under a mountain of false teaching disguising itself as "humility."

      John’s disciples told him about these things, and calling two of them, he sent them to the Lord to ask, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?” When the men came to Jesus, they said, “John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, ‘Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?’” At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. So he replied to the messengers, “Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.” (John 7:18-23)




« Last Edit: December 08, 2022, 12:22:53 PM by Hidden In Him »